Chord solo "You don't Know Me
Printed from: Banjo Hangout
Topic URL: http://www.banjohangout.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=32168
Printed on: 06/15/2005
Topic:
Topic author: banjola1
Subject: Chord solo "You don't Know Me
Posted on: 06/08/2005 16:59:11
Message:
A song made famous by Ray Charles, "You Don't Know Me"
The melody is on top and will sometimes embellish the basic chords.
Don't let the chord symbols scare you - it's the sound that counts!
If you have difficulty with full four-note voicings, then just use
the top three notes until you gain facility.
Key of D major - Rubato
1st chorus
A13 A7+5 A7 D6 Dmaj9 D6 D6 Am9 D9 D7b9
|---7-------7------9------9-----7-----7-----------------0------4------7------7-------7--|
|---7-------6------5------7-----------5-----------------0------0------5------5-------4--|
|---6-------6------6------7-----------4--------2--------2------2------5------5-------5--|
|---5-------5------5------7-----------4-----------------4------0------5------4-------4--|
|---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
You give your hand to me, and then you say hel - lo
D13 D7+5 D7 G6 Gmaj9 G6 G6 G6 E7b9
|--12-----12----12-----14----12------12------0-------5-------9-----14------12-----12----|
|--12-----11----10-----12------------10--------------5-------5-----12--------------9----|
|--11-----11----11-----12-------------9--------------7-------7-----12-------------10----|
|--10-----10----10-----12-------------9--------------9-------5-----12--------------9----|
|---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
And I can hard - ly speak my heart is beat - ing so,
E7b9 E13+5b9 E7b9 D6 F#m7-5 B7b9 B7b9 B7+5 B7b9 Em11 A7b9
|--12-----11------8-----9------7-------7-------4-------9--------7------7------5-----5---|
|---9-----9-------8-----7------5-------4-------4-------8--------7------5------------5---|
|--10-----10-----10-----7------4-------5-------5-------8--------8------7------------6---|
|---9-----12-----12-----7------4-------4-------7-------7-------10------9------------8---|
|---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
And an - y one can tell, you think you know me well
Em Bbdim. A7b9 D11 D6 (turn) F#7+5 B9 B9b9 E9 E9+5 Em9 A13b9
|----------------5-----5------4-------------------4-----4-----4-----4-----4-----4----4--|
|--0-----2-------2-----0------0-------------------3-----2-----1-----3-----1-----3----2--|
|--0-----3-------3-----2------2-------------------3-----2-----2-----1-----1-----4----3--|
|--2-----5-------2-----0------0-------------------2-----1-----1-----2-----2-----5----5--|
|---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
Well you don't know me ......
Arrangement copyright 2005 Kumo Music
Pat Cloud
http://patcloud.com
Replies:
Reply author: Flipd
Replied on: 06/08/2005 18:27:29
Message:
HEY!!!??? Are you spying on my practice????? I just lost it when I saw your next post "You Don't Know Me"... I've been playing with this (transposing from a guitar tab). This was the first song I chose to teach myself. This is bizarre... no time to type more... must play with what you just put up! Wow - the cosmos is spinning!!
Now that we know better.. let's do better
Reply author: Banjoman
Replied on: 06/08/2005 18:44:51
Message:
Welcome back Pat. 
Hugh
Pickin' since 1964.
Click here - Banjo Hangout Rules & Guidelines.
Click Here - Bobby Thompson's Home Page
Reply author: Flipd
Replied on: 06/08/2005 18:50:31
Message:
I'm flip'n out and must go outside for a walk - but before I go. Any tips on how to work out the four note voicings? How would you play this without losing the melody? Roll? Strum? Vamp? T-T-I-M? I feel I am a 'tip' away from breaking thru.
Thanks oh physic one! (You must know I am laughing out loud at how synchronistic this is!!!)
Now that we know better.. let's do better
Reply author: banjola1
Replied on: 06/08/2005 19:58:02
Message:
Flipd,
For chord melody arrangements, I usually go through the following steps:
1.) Find a key that allows most of the range of the melody to be on the first string, or second string, if you must.
2.) Play the melody with unaltered basic triads, major, minor, diminished aug, etc. so as to get a feel of how the melody and the basic chords work. (Good to use the original sheet music.)
3.) Add interest to a progression by working out a variety of extended voicings that embellish the basic chords with inner voice movement based on the cycle of fifths and show descending or ascending voices with the chords as the melody progresses. (See my treatment of the alphabet song.)
As for the other question: I'm not sure exactly what you meant by "not losing the melody."
You could simply play with a bass player which would allow you more freedom.
Pay close attention to the direction of the melody resolve, whether it be a temporary modulation or a final dominant resolve. Devise chordal or melodic fills which progress from one good harmonic point to another keeping the gist of the melody and hinting at harmonic movement within the melodic lines - in other words, improvising or playing around with the melody using a chosen scale for each change but include enough of the melody to anchor the ears of your listeners (and yourself for that matter).
The above usually means a different sheme or treatment for different songs depending on how you feel about the melody, lyrics, etc. I don't use a particular fingering, strum or roll unless it adds to an original feeling for the particular song in question. A lot of the final result is not formulaic, but adhere's more to feeling for the song and this may change each time you play it. You can play chord fills that approach the next melody note, for example.
Regarding basic chording: Simple straightforward downward strums with the thumb suffice in most situations or you could thumb the fourth string while simultaneously strumming up briskly with the index finger. This usually aids in faster chording.
Hope this helps.
quote:
Originally posted by Flipd
I'm flip'n out and must go outside for a walk - but before I go. Any tips on how to work out the four note voicings? How would you play this without losing the melody? Roll? Strum? Vamp? T-T-I-M? I feel I am a 'tip' away from breaking thru.
Thanks oh physic one! (You must know I am laughing out loud at how synchronistic this is!!!)
Now that we know better.. let's do better
Pat Cloud
http://patcloud.com
Reply author: banjola1
Replied on: 06/08/2005 21:58:45
Message:
For Flipd -
Example of Jazz Chord Melody Evolution.
Extension and substitution.
This is just a generic approach to a simple well-known melody. Each song has its own individual harmonic structure and may therefore take a different treatment.
The Alphabet Song
Key: G
Basic melody on first string:
--5---5---12---12---|---14---14----12----|--10---10---9---9---|----7---7-----5-----| --------------------|--------------------|--------------------|--------------------| --------------------|--------------------|--------------------|--------------------| --------------------|--------------------|--------------------|--------------------| --------------------|--------------------|--------------------|--------------------| Add bluegrass style chords: G G G G C C G C C G G D D G --5---5---12---12---|---14---14-----12---|--10---10---9---9---|--7----7------5-----| --3---3---12---12---|---13---13-----12---|---8----8---8---8---|--7----7------3-----| --4---4---12---12---|---12---12-----12---|---9----9---7---7---|--7----7------4-----| --5---5---12---12---|---14---14-----12---|--10---10---9---9---|--7----7------5-----| --------------------|--------------------|--------------------|--------------------| Using extended diatonic harmony from a G major scale, build chord inversions under the melody: Em7 Em7 Bm7 Bm7 Am7 Am7 Bm7 Am7 Am7 Em7 Em7 D7(9) D7(9) G --5---5----12---12--|--14----14----12----|--10---10---9----9--|---7-----7-------5--| --3---3----10---10--|--10----10----10----|---8----8---5----7--|---5-----5-------3--| --4---4----11---11--|--12----12----11----|---9----9---7----7--|---5-----5-------4--| --2---2-----9----9--|--10----10-----9----|---7----7---5----5--|---4-----4-------5--| --------------------|--------------------|--------------------|--------------------| Replace pivotal diatonic minors with dominant chords: Em7 Em7 Bm7 E7 Am7 A7(9) Bm7 Am7 Am7 Bm7 E7(9) A7+5 D9 G --5----5---12---12--|--14----14-----12---|-10---10---9-----9--|---7-- --7-----5----| --3----3---10----9--|--10----12-----10---|--8---8----5-----7--|---7-- --5-----3----| --4----4---11----9--|--12----12-----11---|--9---9----7-----7--|---6- ---5-----4----| --2----2----9----9--|--10----11------9---|--7---7----7-----6--|---5-- --4-----5----| --------------------|--------------------|--------------------|--------------------| Using diminished chord substitutes for E7 and A7 (E7b9 = F7dim / A7b9 = Bb7dim) Em7 Em7 Bm7 E7b9 Am7 A7b9 Bm7 Am7 D7b9 Em7 E7b9 A7+5 D7b9 G --5---5---12----12--|--14---14-----12----|--10---10----9---9--|----7----7------5---| --3---3---10-----9--|--10---11-----10----|---8----7----5---6--|----6----4------3---| --4---4---11----10--|--12---12-----11----|---9----8----7---7--|----6----5------4---| --2---2----9-----9--|--10---11-----9-----|---7----7----5---6--|----5----4------5---| --------------------|--------------------|--------------------|--------------------|
This is only one of many ways of reharmonizing. The basic idea is to add interest and harmonic movement to a melody.
Pat Cloud
http://patcloud.com
Reply author: kjrman
Replied on: 06/08/2005 23:22:56
Message:
Awsome lesson, explanation and example.
Thanks for sharing!!!
Kelly
Reply author: Flipd
Replied on: 06/09/2005 04:22:48
Message:
Pat, Thanks very much. That was extremely helpful. Your explanations are very succinct and examples are a joy to play with. What you are describing (reharmonizing with inversions, substitutions, etc.) is exactly what I've been learning and playing with. It's a lot of fun to discover so many different voices.
quote:
I don't use a particular fingering, strum or roll unless it adds to an original feeling for the particular song in question. A lot of the final result is not formulaic, but adhere's more to feeling for the song and this may change each time you play it.
What you said here is a perfect description of what I strive for in playing. My brain has ingested a large amount of theory in the last few months and I'm having a time breaking out of the "thinking" too much while playing - and am working towards playing more with feeling rather than thinking. It's nice to hear that there are others out there that approach this "round harp" with similar thoughts.. especially not being stuck in a particular fingering, strum or roll.
An aside: Now that you've had more time to bond with your banjola - I'd be interested to hear what you like and don't like (if anything) about it. Would you mind sharing how you prefer to play (picks? no picks?). Any other insights would be appreciated. I see Gold Tone now has the Pat Cloud model! The sound is wonderful and was my first preference when I made the decision to try the banjo. Opted for a less expensive Gold Tone (which I'm very happy with .. tho I play it more often with a mute because that sounds similar to a banjola) - but have been dreaming of the banjola. . .
I will check in to the forum a bit more often to see what other tidbits you may be inclined to share. Thanks again. Flipd
Now that we know better.. let's do better
Reply author: trapdoor2
Replied on: 06/09/2005 16:25:19
Message:
This is a delight. Thanks Kumo-san!
I must note that for myself, these chord formations beg for "C-concert" tuning (gCGbd) which make most of 'em much easier to finger.
The "Alphabet" example is excellent and I can't wait to get home and apply it to a tune running in my head just now: Gus Kahn's "I'll See You In My Dreams"
===Marc
Reply author: banjola1
Replied on: 06/09/2005 22:29:45
Message:
Trapdoor,
I see the original sheet music for "I'll See You In My Dreams" is in the key of F.
I have a simple thumbnail sketch of an arrangement in G tuning. Are you going to work it out in C tuning?
quote:
Originally posted by trapdoor2
This is a delight. Thanks Kumo-san!
I must note that for myself, these chord formations beg for "C-concert" tuning (gCGbd) which make most of 'em much easier to finger.
The "Alphabet" example is excellent and I can't wait to get home and apply it to a tune running in my head just now: Gus Kahn's "I'll See You In My Dreams"
===Marc
Pat Cloud
http://patcloud.com
Reply author: trapdoor2
Replied on: 06/09/2005 22:37:47
Message:
Kumo-san,
Yes, I'm going to give it a try. I play a lot of classic style in C so it is natural (at least for now). Much more complex than your example...but a favorite of mine.
(edit: gee, I forgot to say I'd love to see your sketch in G tuning...I'm gonna need all the help I can get. 
)
===Marc
Reply author: banjola1
Replied on: 06/10/2005 00:38:28
Message:
Marc,
I really wanted the first note of this song to be "F." The melody note goes from E in a C chord to D in a Bb chord which is strange - an F note would have been a nice neat I7-IV progression. But that's what's written by Isham Jones in 1924. Gus Kahn wrote the lyrics and it was first sung in a movie of the same name in 1951. (I love movie and Broadway background trivia.)
So, I decided to use a +5 C chord for the intro note because it showed a little more color than just a straight major C. I will only occasionally go against the the written chord changes to get a voiced transition that I like and still keep with the main gist of the melody.
The stretch for the G13(9) in the first ending might also be voiced as a Bm7b5 (9-7-6-7) 4th to 1st strings respectively which is also G9 without the root. This kind of stretch probably demonstrates your point about chord voicings in G tuning vs. C tuning. But I've gotten used to it over the years so it doesn't bother me as much anymore.
Chord Solo: "I'll See You In My Dreams" (And probably nowhere else!)
Key of F
C+ Bbmaj9 Bb6 Bb6 Bbmaj.7 Bbm6 Bbdim7
--2--|----0-----3----|----5-------7-------|-------5------------|--------5----------|
--1--|----1-----3----|----3-------6-------|-------6------------|--------5----------|
--1--|----3-----3----|----3-------7-------|-------6------------|--------6----------|
--0--|----3-----5----|----3-------8-------|-------8------------|--------8----------|
-----|---------------|--------------------|--------------------|-------------------|
I'll see you in my dreams etc.
Fmaj7 F6(9) Fdim7 E7+5 F6 F6(9)
-----7------10------|---12--------14-----|-------12-----------|--------12----------|
-----5-------8------|----9--------13-----|-------10-----------|--------10----------|
-----5-------7------|---10--------13-----|-------10-----------|---------9----------|
-----3-------7------|----9--------12-----|-------10-----------|--------10----------|
--------------------|--------------------|--------------------|--------------------|
1st Ending:
A7b9
D7+5 D7 (Bbdim7) D7 Am7 D9 D7b9
---12--------0------|---2---------4------|--10---7---10---7---|--------7-----------|
---11--------1------|---2---------1------|---8---5--------5---|--------4-----------|
---11--------2------|---3---------2------|---9---5--------5---|--------5-----------|
---10--------4------|---5---------0------|---7---5--------4---|--------4-----------|
--------------------|--------------------|--------------------|--------------------|
G13(9) G9 G13 G7b9 Gm9 Gm7 C7b9 To beg. then 2nd ending
----7-------0-------|----2--------3------|--7----5---7----5---.||
----5-------0-------|----0--------0------|--3----3--------2---.||
----4-------2-------|----2--------1------|--3----3--------3---.||
----3-------3-------|----3--------0------|--3----3--------2---.||
--------------------|--------------------|--------------------.||
2nd Ending:
Am7b5 D7+5 D7b9 A13 A7b9 Dm7 C+
----13-----12-------|---10--------7------|-----7-------5------|-----3--------2-----|
----10-----11-------|----7--------4------|-----7-------2------|-----1--------1-----|
----12-----11-------|----8--------5------|-----6-------3------|-----2--------1-----|
----10-----10-------|----7--------4------|-----5-------2------|-----0--------0-----|
--------------------|--------------------|--------------------|--------------------|
(Bbm6)
Bbmaj9 Bb6 C7b9 C13b9 F(6) F(6)
----0------3--------|-----5-------7------|---------3----------|---------3----------|
----1------3--------|-----2-------5------|---------3----------|---------3----------|
----3------3--------|-----3-------6------|---------5----------|---------5----------|
----3------5--------|-----2-------8------|---------7----------|---------7----------|
--------------------|--------------------|--------------------|--------------------|Copyright 2005 Kumo Music
Pat Cloud
http://patcloud.com
Reply author: Pluto
Replied on: 06/10/2005 02:56:37
Message:
Kumo-san,
Domo arigato gozai mas. And welcome back. To fully learn this I tried it on myself to see if I can get through the steps you so clearly defined. I selected a song I've been working on. Here is the melody, along with the original backing chords:
I've just seen a face, Lennon & McCartney, key of A. A ---7---7---7---9---|---9---7---7---11---|--11---7---7---12--|--12---11---11---9--| -------------------|--------------------|-------------------|--------------------| -------------------|--------------------|-------------------|--------------------| -------------------|--------------------|-------------------|--------------------| -------------------|--------------------|-------------------|--------------------| I've just seen a face I can't for - get the time or place where we just F#m F#m7 ---7---7---7---9---|---9---7---7---11---|--11---7---7---12--|--12---11---11---9--| -------------------|--------------------|-------------------|--------------------| -------------------|--------------------|-------------------|--------------------| -------------------|--------------------|-------------------|--------------------| -------------------|--------------------|-------------------|--------------------| met, She's just the girl for me And I want all the world to see we've D E A ---7---------------|--12-------11-------|--9------7----6----|--7-----------------| -------------------|--------------------|-------------------|--------------------| -------------------|--------------------|-------------------|--------------------| -------------------|--------------------|-------------------|--------------------| -------------------|--------------------|-------------------|--------------------| met. Mm mm mm mm - mm mm.To simplify matters for my first time at this I put the melody on the first string. I guess this gets me through step 1.
For step 2, I tried the following.
A A A Bm Bm A A A A A A D D A A Bm ---7---7---7---9---|---9---7---7---11---|--11---7---7---12--|--12---11---11---9--| ---5---5---5---7---|---7---5---5---10---|--10---5---5---10--|--10---10---10---7--| ---6---6---6---7---|---7---6---6----9---|---9---6---6---11--|--11----9----9---7--| ---7---7---7---9---|---9---7---7---11---|--11---7---7---12--|--12---11---11---9--| -------------------|--------------------|-------------------|--------------------| I've just seen a face I can't for - get the time or place where we just A A A Bm Bm A A A A A A D D A A Bm ---7---7---7---9---|---9---7---7---11---|--11---7---7---12--|--12---11---11---9--| ---5---5---5---7---|---7---5---5---10---|--10---5---5---10--|--10---10---10---7--| ---6---6---6---7---|---7---6---6----9---|---9---6---6---11--|--11----9----9---7--| ---7---7---7---9---|---9---7---7---11---|--11---7---7---12--|--12---11---11---9--| -------------------|--------------------|-------------------|--------------------| met, She's just the girl for me And I want all the world to see we've A D A Bm A E A ---7---------------|--12-------11-------|---9-----7----6----|--7-----------------| ---5---------------|--10-------10-------|---7-----5----5----|--5-----------------| ---6---------------|--11--------9-------|---7-----6----4----|--6-----------------| ---7---------------|--12-------11-------|---9-----7----6----|--7-----------------| -------------------|--------------------|-------------------|--------------------| met. Mm mm mm mm - mm mm.In reharmonizing I went purely on sound, and satisfyingly the chords I chose were all in the key of A except the final E. If I instead abide by the harmonic theory for key of A, the E should have been an E7:
A D A Bm A E7 A ---7---------------|--12-------11-------|---9-----7----6----|--7-----------------| ---5---------------|--10-------10-------|---7-----5----3----|--5-----------------| ---6---------------|--11--------9-------|---7-----6----4----|--6-----------------| ---7---------------|--12-------11-------|---9-----7----6----|--7-----------------| -------------------|--------------------|-------------------|--------------------| met. Mm mm mm mm - mm mm.First question is regarding my original choice of E over E7. The E sounded ok. It wasn't until I applied knowledge of music theory to try the E7, which ultimately seemed more satisfying, even though the E seems to be more in line with the bright cheery way in which McCartney sings the lyrics. So, do you in general, in choosing this first cut of diatonic chords, espouse going with the sound or with picking chords from the key?
My second question is how do I go from here! This is where I realized I didn't fully understand step 3. One thing I tried was replacing the A with its relative minor, F#m, and that completely changes the feel of the song for my ears to a different mood altogether. About the best I could come up with for the first chord was this:
Amaj7 ---7-- ---5-- ---6-- ---6-- ------ I've
After that, with the Bm, I again got lost. Any tips on how to proceed?
Thirdly, this choice of song makes me wonder, are some songs better suited for this than others? I wonder if this one is too bright and happy sounding to lend well to this technique, or not?
Reply author: banjola1
Replied on: 06/10/2005 05:40:34
Message:
Hellp there, Mr. P
I guess that you have to decide what kind of mood you want to create with any treatment of a song. This is a sort of happy almost folky tune and a jazzier ballad treatment may not be to your taste. But I've heard and played in bluegrass bands that burn the tempo out of this song - much faster than Mc Cartney did it, and I've come to believe that it really didn't fit the mood or words. So I thought the song would be good introduced in a balladic way and then improvised in medium tempo over the changes.
A lot can be done with simple three note chords. The first part is simple three note chords with movement on the second string to a quick altered E dominant and then an Amaj9 inversion to accommodate the melody. The beginning of the second line is the same thing but using movement on the third string for the relative minor F#. The dominant to F#minor is C#7 which I use for the eighth chord in the first and second lines to create a temporary tension. The last chord in the second line is A9 going to D major in the third line. It may not fit the song, but I just had to do it. Don't ask me why.
I didn't have time to thoroughly go over these ideas or analyze and add the chords. It rather late here and since everybody is sleeping, I think I will also hit it for the night.
Everything is optional when you do these re-harmonizations and I like the freedom of it. You may or may not like what I've done here and if this isn't to your taste, then by all means toss it! Otherwise, hope it helps.
Quick sketch of "I've Just Seen A Face"
---7--7--7---9------|---9----7---7---11--|--11---7---7---12---|--12--11--11----9---| ---5--6--7---6------|---7----7---7----9--|---7---7---7---10---|---9---9---9----6---| ---6--6--6---7------|---9----9---9---10--|---9---9---9----9---|--10--10--10----7---| -------------6------|--11---11--11----9--|---7--11---11---9---|---9---9---9----6---| --------------------|--------------------|--------------------|--------------------| ---7--7--7---9------|---9----7---7---11--|--11---7---7---12---|--12--11--11----9---| ---7--7--7---6------|---7----6---6----9--|---7---7---7---10---|---9---9---9----8---| ---6--7--8---7------|---5----6---6---10--|---9---9---9----9---|--10--10--10----6---| --------------------|-----------------9--|---7--11---11---9---|---9---9---9----7---| --------------------|--------------------|--------------------|--------------------| ------7-------------|----12-------11-----|----9-----7----6----|-----7--------------| ------7-------------|----10-------8------|----7-----7----6----|-----5--------------| ------7-------------|----11-------9------|----7-----7----7----|-----6--------------| ------7-------------|-----9-------8------|----7-----9----9----|-----7--------------| --------------------|--------------------|--------------------|--------------------|
Copyright 2005 Kumo Muisc
Pat Cloud
http://patcloud.com
Reply author: trapdoor2
Replied on: 06/10/2005 10:11:17
Message:
Kumo-san,
Very cool treatment. Can't wait to get home to try it out. Yesterday evening, I dug out my copy of the original sheet (I collect sheet music, among other things) and started working out the original chords. I've always loved this tune (and used it as my 'signoff' tune when I did a few local radio shows...about a hundred years ago). I must have a dozen covers of it.
Interestingly (very common for then), the original sheet has uke chords above the staff...which appear to follow your scheme pretty closely!
Chord naming conventions (or lack thereof) confuse me. I'm not trained in theory. However, if the tune sounds good...
===Marc
Reply author: Pluto
Replied on: 06/10/2005 10:59:44
Message:
Good morning, Pat,
Thanks so much, that was more than I expected, much appreciated. Your example is better than a dozen tips. I'll give this a study after work tonight, and see if I can understand how you got to the end result, and hopefully, how I can learn to do the same.
Actually just that I could even get through step 2 is a big first for me. I never thought creating a chord melody could be so doable, and now here I am trying to figure out how to add some color to my creation. Thanks Pat! This is a great lesson.
Mark
Reply author: RyanHerr
Replied on: 06/10/2005 11:57:54
Message:
Hi Pluto, I have some comments & ideas about your version of "I've Just Seen a Face" that you posted.
First of all, your E chord is in the key of A. You're not playing the 7th at all in that chord voicing, so the ear hears E7 implied. You'd be out of the key if you played Emaj7.
Also, I'm curious about some of the choices you made in going from step 1 to step 2.
In Step 1, you have an A chord for all of line 1.
When you put in the B minor and D chords into Step 2 line 1, it does sounds good to me.
As another option, you could stick with the A chord throughout all of Step 2 line 1, like you have it in Step 1 line 1.
instead of Bm, you'd use:
-9-- -10- -8-- -11- ----
and instead of D, you'd use:
-12- -10- -9-- -11- ----
those could be called Aadd9 and Aadd11, respectively, but in my opinion, it would be more accurate to call them an A chord with B in the melody, and an A chord with D in the melody.
Moving on ...
Step 1 has an F#m chord throughout all of line 2.
In your Step 2 line 2, you begin with an A chord, when it would be just as easy to play an F#m. In my opinion, an F#m would sound better there than an A.
Step 1 line 3 has D - E - A.
Similarly, in your Step 2 line 3, you begin with an A chord, when it would be just as easy to play a D. There's a big difference being on the subdominant versus being on the tonic, and to my ears, that difference is important.
Finally, I really do like the sound of the D-A-Bm-A-E-A sequence at the end. Personally, I like the E voicing over the E7 voicing in there, but that's subjective. I do think its important that the second to last chord be either an E or an E7, but I don't think it's very important which one.
Alot of this stuff is subjective.
-Ryan.
Reply author: Pluto
Replied on: 06/10/2005 22:26:40
Message:
Hello Ryan,
Thanks for the comments. I know you've worked on chord melodies a lot.
To answer your question
"Also, I'm curious about some of the choices you made in going from step 1 to step 2."
Step1 was just the original harmony used by John and Paul, and I got Step 2 by selecting a major or minor chord with the melody note as the highest note (and due to the symmetry of major/minor banjo chords, also the root). I was basically just trying to follow Pat's formula. Now I can see that like others have noted here that while there's also a method one can use to get the process started, there's also a lot of flexibility in getting to the end result. This chord melody stuff is kind of fun.
Your approach suggests a way to use the original harmony to suggest the reharmonization. I guess this shows that there is more than one way to skin a chord melody!
Mark
Reply author: banjola1
Replied on: 06/12/2005 03:13:51
Message:
quote:
Originally posted by banjola1
Pluto,
I had some reservations when I posted the Alpahbet Song example. I am becoming more and more anti-theory the older I get. My reason for saying this is that if I post some kind of method, I run the risk of creating the wrong impression about what actually happens in the true process of putting together these very generic arrangements. Depending upon a person's temperment, posting instructions or methods can be taken as ultra reductionistic exercise rather than what I really intended.
When I said I go through certain "steps" it wasn't a conscious process of actually adding inversions or "substituting" or adding an 11th etc. It is rather an unconscios process that is guided underneath by theory, but realized as sound. So the real process is actually just plain old "hit and miss" until I find something I like that will suffice as a basic template. From that kind of generic point, if you are really going to say something about a song, you have to find out what you really feel about the song and translate sound and emotion to theoretical extensions and substitutions."
After all, theory has never been proven and is sort of a scaffolding upon which you can build all the things you want to hear. I know we have to talk about it somehow, but it really is nothing more than framing the melody in expression. Once you have learned a variety of chords and inversons, it is a matter of what compells your inner being. It really does not take a lot. That's why I really like three note chords, some that are spread over five to six frets in the higher registers. The understanding is really not in theory, but in sound. One should be able to take the knowledge they already have and be totally expressive - and not even know what chord this or that is.
Sorry to go on about this, but I felt the need to clarify.quote:
Originally posted by Pluto
Pluto,
Good morning, Pat,
Actually just that I could even get through step 2 is a big first for me. I never thought creating a chord melody could be so doable, and now here I am trying to figure out how to add some color to my creation. Thanks Pat! This is a great lesson.
Mark
Pat Cloud
http://patcloud.com
Pat Cloud
http://patcloud.com
Reply author: Pluto
Replied on: 06/12/2005 04:52:16
Message:
Pat,
I appreciate your concern in being potentially misinterpreted by some here and your clarification is well-taken. Myself, I do understand that this methodology is just one of many possible ways to get at an artistic result - as you put it, a scaffolding meant to be discarded once a result or better way is attained. But I can see how my reinterpretation of your suggestions could possibly mislead other readers into finding a mechanical systematic approach where you did not wish there to be one.
That said, personally I believe cultural transmission of this art requires describing some kind of methodology. IMO the word 'theory' seems to suggest something that may be disproved by experiment or confirmed by replication, i.e., a codification that is either right or wrong. Whereas the an artistic approach of course can never ever really be right or wrong - just more or less effective in expressing some subjective feeling or perspective. If not for some type of codification, inaccurate and incomplete though it may be, all sharing of this would necessarily require real-time face-to-face transmission, like learning zen from a set of koans (which IMO cannot be learned via written communique, even though a koan may be represented in written form). Meaning you could only discuss this topic with those others here who are already enlightened - who already understand the essence of the basic approach.
So Please do keep trying to convey your understanding via systematic approach! If it were not for your ABC example I would not have gotten as far as I have. This thread is the first time I ever even contemplated trying to reharmonize a melody. All other explanations I'd ever read were either too tedious or just too vaguely described for me to replicate. For the benefit of others that may follow I promise I'll refrain from my misleading theoretical reinterpretations.
Reply author: banjola1
Replied on: 06/12/2005 12:52:33
Message:
Pluto,
I never meant to imply that your posts were misleading. My so-called "method" was my attempt to describe what I thought I was doing six years ago. If it is helpful then great.
quote:
Originally posted by Pluto
Pat,
... For the benefit of others that may follow I promise I'll refrain from my misleading theoretical reinterpretations.
Pat Cloud
http://patcloud.com
Reply author: Pluto
Replied on: 06/12/2005 15:10:16
Message:
Pat,
My statement was more an admission of guilt - as you correctly suspected I have a deeply rooted reductionist bent. People like myself in this regard believe this quote, for better and for worse:
"You think you know when you learn, are more sure when you can write, even more when you can teach, but certain when you can program."
(Alan Perlis)
Back to the topic - this thread (thanks also, Marc, Flipd and RyanH for your comments) demystified chord melodies for me, giving me a whole new avenue for me to explore. But even better, I discovered I can apply what I've learned in this thread to what I was working on at the time - creating a 3-finger picking solo to I've Just Seen A Face. What you said here:
quote:triggered some ideas.
So I thought the song would be good introduced in a balladic way and then improvised in medium tempo over the changes.
Reply author: banjola1
Replied on: 06/12/2005 19:20:26
Message:
"Then after you 'program' you're forever in need of bug spray."
quote:
Originally posted by Pluto
Pat,
"You think you know when you learn, are more sure when you can write, even more when you can teach, but certain when you can program."
(Alan Perlis)
Pat Cloud
http://patcloud.com
Reply author: Pluto
Replied on: 06/12/2005 22:41:35
Message:
True, true
quote:
Originally posted by banjola1
"Then after you 'program' you're forever in need of bug spray."quote:
Originally posted by Pluto "You think you know when you learn, are more sure when you can write, even more when you can teach, but certain when you can program."
(Alan Perlis)
Pat Cloud
http://patcloud.com
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